David Biespiel’s Poetry Wire: Is Franz Wright the Rush Limbaugh of American Poetry?
I had intended this week to write about gratitude. To express my thanks to all the new readers of Poetry Wire and The Rumpus and to wish you all a pleasant Thanksgiving. I wanted to say something about the necessity of thankfulness in art and poetry, to say that this week I rededicate myself to having kind thoughts, to not get angry or think badly about others, to work to the benefit of others as much as I can. In poetry and in life.
But then, on Sunday, I awoke to news that, after he received a generic invitation sent to thousands of others merely to “like” the Pine Manor MFA program from its director Meg Kearney, poet Franz Wright attacked Kearney, among others on his Facebook page.
And, well, gratitude gave way. I’m sorry. Here’s Franz Wright’s vitriolic Facebook post:
More of these pugilistic posts have followed on Wright’s FB page. But, for now, here are some thoughts.
First, Jesus! Here we go again, Franz Wright getting his drawers in a twist about poetry and throwing a temper tantrum (more on that below).
Second, even though Wright attacks Kearney for generically Facebook-inviting him to do something benign like “like” her program, and even though he then writes this absurd tirade against her and the MFA establishment, it turns out that, in the past, Wright has given two readings at Pine Manor’s MFA. I mean, c’mon, if you felt this way about MFA programs, Franz, you shouldn’t have accepted the invitations to Pine Manor, nor taken the honorariums. (In an interview, Meg Kearney confirms his participation in the program.)
Before I go on, two disclosures: I think Wright’s minimalist poems are best when they address the other, the odd, the foreign. They are less interesting to me when they address himself and collapse into self-indulgence. As a confessionalist, he aims for pure unleashing, but ends up, more often than not, simply self-aggrandizing. His poems masquerade as sensual but they are manipulatively moralistic. None of this bothers me really. Like any poet, Wright is welcome to write whatever kind of poems he wants.
Another disclosure: I have never met Franz Wright. Or, to be precise, we did meet, sort of, nearly thirty years ago in the middle of the night when he burst into the Boston apartment of a girl I was then dating and launched a screed, a ranting monologue, against her roommate (who, at the time was his paramour, or something). I forget what the folderol was about, but I’m guessing it had to do with unrequited love. Now, on his behalf, this was the 80′s. We were all young. But when the fulmination seemed like it wasn’t going to subside, I got out of bed and padded into the living room, feigning something about not being able to sleep and offering to make some coffee. Want some? No. Then he left. I have never forgotten this last detail: The exposed bully, Franz Wright, walking out of the apartment and leaving the front door wide open behind him for somebody else to close. Some things never change. I was told that night that he was the “son of a very famous poet.” Years later, when I began to see his poems in print, I put him together with his father, James Wright.
Though I didn’t recognize him then, I do recognize him now as a veritable Rush Limbaugh and bully of American poetry.
Like Limbaugh, Wright believes in a golden age. Limbaugh’s lodestar is the anti-tax conservatism of Ronald Reagan, while all the while ignoring basic historic fact that Reagan raised taxes seven out of the eight years he was president and that the size of the federal government, long despised by conservatives, ballooned. Wright’s lodestar is the outsider French surrealists and the semi-romantic notion of poets as devotees of poverty, despite the basic historic fact that the French surrealists have been de rigeur in the academy’s MFA schools Wright so dislikes. More to the point, those French poets weren’t so ascetic: Arthur Rimbaud was from a stable middle class family, Charles Baudelaire was the son of a senior civil servant, Paul Verlaine’s father was affluent, and Stephane Mallarme was, throughout his life — oh, my God! — employed in that most dreaded Meg Kearneysque profession as a schoolteacher.
Like Limbaugh, Wright bullies in order to aggrandize his own choices. Reread his FB post again, and you’ll see the Limbaugh spirit: I’m right, you’re wrong.
Like Limbaugh who sides with outsiders and uses false airs of victimhood to rally his ditto heads into a narrow interpretation of lived experience, Wright plays the outsider as well — mind you, that’s the son of poetry royalty outsider, a poet published by a New York corporate publishing house outsider, a Pulitzer Prize winning outsider. You know, he’s an outsider they way Ted Kennedy was an outsider. Wright’s followers, his fellow “outsiders,” love Wright’s anti-MFA diatribes, including the Limbaughesque shorthands: “Femi-Nazi” is to Limbaugh as MFA “Prograsms” is to Wright.
Finally, like Limbaugh who seldom exhibits public grace, humility, and fairminded-ness and so undercuts his right wing philosophy of stability and continuity, Wright’s public screeds undercut his own best art, diminish the vision he has sought to bring to his poems, and reduce his stance to the rest of the poetry world as a single, unattractive position: Get off my lawn. Hmm? Your lawn, oh, outsider, you?
Poetry like politics is populated with enough cranks. Limbaugh was set back recently, as you know. After he attacked University of Georgetown undergraduate Sandra Fluke, advertisers withdrew their support of his program, costing Cumulus Radio millions of dollars. Will poetry readers do the same to Franz Wright? Already the Facebook de-friending is underway. Will we stop buying his books, too? What is he attacking Meg Kearney for? Or all the others, mostly women, in this post? I mean, Kearney is guilty only of working for a living. Is it right to support Wright when he wrongs others?
I can only imagine now how furiously Wright will now attack me for this post. He’s long shown that he will say anything in public to bring attention to himself. I expect he will do so again. Hypocrisy, contradiction are not impediments to his long history of invective. Who can forget his threatening to beat, yes, beat William Logan? Or his series of Letters to the Editor blowups in Poetry magazine?
In the meantime I take a back seat to no one, including Franz Wright, in defending the idea and ideal that the poet holds a special place in the human tribe. To be a poet calls one to be an illuminator and a seer. It calls on one to reflect on time and history and the future. It calls on one to invent and to bring into relief clarity and metaphor and insight. It calls on one to reveal the evidence of living. It calls on one to be geometric and sensual. It calls on one to synthesize lunacy and truth. It calls on one to look at the world, as Wallace Stevens says, “the way a man looks at a woman.” It calls on one to breath experience into language. It calls on one to transform pain into pleasure. It calls on one to make new myths.
But, here’s the deal, it never calls on one to be a jackass.


November 19th, 2012 at 11:40 am
Thank you, David. Well said, and necessary.
November 19th, 2012 at 11:57 am
If you’re a poet in the USA, you’re an outsider. Wright needs to get over himself.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Thanks for writing this. I used to love Franz Wright’s poetry, and then I became friends with him on Facebook and saw what a mean person he was. He even attacked me once, though I cannot recall what it was for. It was something so absurd that I have since forgotten the details. After that, I de-friended him and got rid of his books and will never read him again.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
I was the target of this rage once. It went on for quite some time until I blocked him. I can’t even quite remember what triggered it, but I do remember being amused by his belief that he’s the only one who has ever experienced hardship. It just doesn’t occur to him that *any* other poet could possibly have felt enormous grief or pain or loss or poverty or been victim to anything (other than their own pettiness, of course). He’s the sole carrier of the suffering torch for all writers and you damn well better acknowledge it or else be prepared to be the recipient of a screed like the aforementioned.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
I think we would do well to remember that much of Wright’s instability and irritability are likely due to mental illness. I think he’s a powerful poet — one of our most interesting, in fact. I just don’t let his negative behavior (which I’ve witnessed, from a distance, more than once) affect my appreciation of his art.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
I’m grateful when people stand up to bullies.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
He really couldn’t sound more ridiculous. Thanks for responding to him. Although it’s probably an exercise in futility, it needed to be said.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Amen. Wright’s screed is nothing but thuggery masquerading as romantic idealism.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Seems like Franz Wright has more in common with Al Gore than Rush Limbaugh in that Al Gore spent most of his adult life in politics trying to emerge from his father’s long shadow (his father, Al Gore, Sr served in Congress for 32 years). While Franz Wright is notable as a contemporary poet, it wouldn’t be far-fetched to understand his frustration with the poetry world in general as he struggles to outshine his father’s legacy. Of course, this doesn’t excuse obnoxious behavior but context is everything sometimes.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Perhaps a little Bourdieu should be on the esteemed poet’s reading list in the future….
November 19th, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Hardly the first or, sadly, the last entitled dude to act like a turkey on Facebook; but getting rid of all his books seems excessive. If I got rid of all writers’ books who’d been publicly hostile jerks, my bookshelves would be quite emptied. Wright has written some great poems; his behavior is unfortunate and obviously shouldn’t be condoned. Really, if anything, he’s proving not that the MFA programs has ruined poets but that social media might have.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Erratum: the MFA programs = the MFA program
November 19th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
I don’t think the comparison to Rush Limbaugh works.
November 19th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Although I’m enjoying (rather meanly) all the hooplah about FW and love DB’s saying he’s the Rush Limbaugh of poetry, I’m wondering if maybe FW has Alzheimer’s or some other personality-destroying (sometimes) disease. Not that that would make his diatribes any easier to take, but at least it might explain why he’s behaving like such a jerk.
November 19th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Frankly, I don’t see the point of this piece. If you don’t like what Franz Wright says (or rants) on FB, then don’t friend him–or simply unfriend him–or send him a message about it. Don’t take to a public venue to denounce him for something he said in a technically private outlet. If you were Meg Kearney herself, I might judge your commentary less harshly, but still…Mr. Wright is certainly not the only writer to feel that MFAs are highly overrated.
November 19th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
I don’t think the Limbaugh comparison works either. I suspect it’s being used to incite further wrath. I’d bet that FW detests Limbaugh and will bristle at the comparison.
November 19th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
I’ll copy my response to Wright here:
I dreamed I wrote a counterpoint to Franz Wright’s evisceration of Meg Kearney,
I’ve met Meg, she’s beautiful, her hair, and I loved her dog, black, it only had three legs, we were at Robert Frost’s barn, himself a curmudgeon but safely dead, there were bats, her dog was well-behaved, I’ve never had a dog who could sit through a poetry reading without lunging at something, Franz, I said in the d
ream, the unnecessary vitriol!, and I used an exclamation point not for emphasis but because it looked like the ramps that grow around my place in the spring, wild onions with long green hair and too much smelly pungency for their own good but I eat them anyway because I’m hungry,
Franz, I wrote in my dream, I’m with you in Rockland, for I do not have an MFA and no dental insurance and the bathtub is falling through the floor of the bathroom into the basement where there are giant vats of Petoskey stones from the previous owner of the house, and driftwood, for he, too, just couldn’t let anything go, my kitchen floor is abstract expressionism, Franz, and not in a good way, none of it good, for I have sought solitude, not group therapy, or solitude sought me for no one could live with me for long without bringing the rat poison up from the basement, even my son, whose “soul progress in solitary devotion” involved heroin and guns, a boy a lot like Rimbaud whose body I would have liked to place into the arms of someone like Meg Kearney, or Meg herself, whose students, I just know it, write to her years later and say Dear Meg, poetry/you saved me, and some of the salvation may have involved a salary and health insurance,
in the dream, Franz, we are in France, for dreams rhyme in silly ways that would make you spit venom, a substance born of fear and too much—who?—William Burroughs? you wrote a poem in which you dreamed of him, it was published in the New Yorker, and I wrote a counterpoint poem, for I knew Burroughs and he put the needle in my boyfriend’s arm, who later overdosed, his body buried in Sag Harbor, though my poem was in Hanging Loose, not the New Yorker, meaning, I guess, you are closer to Keats than I am though Burroughs liked my porn,
so what scares you, Franz, that the masses have crashed the banquet, and none of them Keats, who may have traded Beauty is truth for health insurance and all it represents, for paying for my son’s stints in rehab and psych wards bankrupted me, and bankruptcy is only tangentially related to poetry, and not in a good way, it’s a Republican view, yours, isn’t it, exclusivist, backward-gazing, nostalgic for a time when there were three great men sucking at poetry’s tit-sack and not a million, some of them like Turcotte finding their way to poetry by way of the reservation, or like Juan in Pueblo, or John in Detroit whose brother’s head was blown off in a dice game, or some not men at all,
Molly in Tucson carrying the body of a dead illegal out of the desert, or that girl with numerous piercings in my workshop who goes by the name Chencha and writes shyly, in Spanglish, Franz, there is something at the core of your argument that seduces me, like the pea beneath the hundred mattresses that vexed and intrigued the tender princess, which is why I dreamed of you, which is why, in the dream, I tamed you, for your meanness scares me as does my own, for your wish to believe in the tyranny of genius calls to me, it is purist, as is all tyranny,
in the dream you said we should stick together, you said we are simpatico, we should be comrades, we were in Paris, there was a banquet, all of the bigwigs were there, I was among a cluster of middle-aged women, a group who was trying its hand at poetry, none of which would amount to much in the scheme of things, they stood on the margin in awe of the greats, too fearful to step into the circle, having learned, from early on, their place, but you pulled out a chair for me, you were a little chastened, a little in love, and I was lured, despite the mess of your hair, still I said where’s Meg and you said never mind Meg and I said no, Meg, in the dream I couldn’t lower myself into that chair without Meg and her three-legged dog, who sat at the very back of Frost’s barn and listened so attentively to poetry
November 19th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
“Don’t take to a public venue to denounce him for something he said in a technically private outlet.”
Since when is Facebook a private outlet? When you post something on your wall, you’re making a public statement, even if you’re limiting the audience with your privacy settings. It’s not like this was an email he sent to Kearney–he was blasting it on his wall knowing that he would get a reaction. And now he’s gotten a bunch of them (and I’m betting he doesn’t care one bit).
November 19th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Well, now his FB page is thoroughly private. It’s been deactivated.
November 19th, 2012 at 5:40 pm
First, Franz Wright has battled mental illness for most of his life. Second, he’s an excellent poet who has done his work inspite of every possible emotional catastrophe. Either of these things should have earned him a break. And finally, David Biespiel, Wright didn’t address you. Meg Kearney is very capable of defending herself, on her own, in whatever way she thinks is best. I’m troubled by the contemptuous hyperbole you directed toward a man almost as troubled as he is gifted. It reminded me of what Oscar Wilde said: to look with mockery upon the face of sorrow is an unforgivable sin.
November 19th, 2012 at 5:49 pm
Franz Wright sends angry diatribes to poets big and small. A good friend of mine, who is an emerging poet, was on the receiving end of some of his nastiness in the past. He is mentally unstable, which is unfortunate, and Meg Kearney surely did not deserve, nor I doubt was she expecting, to be on the receiving end of FW’s latest downward spiral. Of course, the elephant in the room is an honest discussion on the state of the poetry MFA program in America today. That type of discussion seems to become more and more frowned upon. After spending thousands and thousands of dollars to get their piece of paper, poets do get defensive about the subject. No matter how much truth there is in the criticisms. I would hope that once the dust settles over FW’s attack on Kearney, that this will lead to further discussion on MFA programs and the myth that one is required to be a “legitimate” poet, which seems to be the new mantra of many younger poets these days. But I’m not waiting up nights.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
An honest discussion on the state of the poetry MFA has been going on for decades now, and there’s no indication it’s about to run out of steam.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
I’ve been on the receiving end of that FW temper. This essay is on point. Love the last line, which is true throughout the world poetical and the world not poetical. Peace to you Franz Wright.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:36 pm
I just wanted to say that many of you would do well to reread, and more carefully consider, exactly what Mr. Wright is saying about contemporary poetry.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
what Margaret Benbow said . . . but I disagree strongly with FW about MFA programs . . . Idealistically I believe that the more poets there are, the more MFA programs where poets can flourish, the better things will be, not just for poetry, but for the greater society as a whole. Too many poets? —Too many gun-manufacturers and too many drone-missile technicians and too many politicians and too many lobbyists and too many PR propagandists and too many clerics preaching death-dogmas, and too many military cadets, yes—— but too many poets? Really? This country needs more poets, not fewer. Let a thousand MFA programs bloom, a million poets, and that still wouldn’t be enough——
November 19th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
I posted a link to Franz’s rant as reported by the Daily News on my FB page, and a discussion followed, essentially in defense of Meg Kearney and labeling the rant as a vitriol. (And I’ve posted a link to here as well.)
Is Franz going into a mental health episode, a downward spiral attributable to possibly a med change? Was he simply drinking at the time? Does he not have a dog to kick instead of Meg? If we go there, into these questions, and say yes to any them, we are not reading what he is ranting.
He was asked to “like” the MFA program. He did not really attack Meg. He essentially riffs off the “like” request to give his rant, a rant it took a poet to write, in the sense that he had to move through his insight, a sort of musing, onto the page, as a non-poet would not be able to. He is looking at the state of the art from the periphery, even though he is within the state itself. I’m not saying that this musing is confoundingly good or outside any of the above responders’ kens. Just that one more person asked Franz Wright to “like” an MFA program, and this set him off.
Be a Chinese dissident, or an American dissident. Problem is, all the good soldiers are in the armed forces of the country you’d be a dissident of. The MFA programs have conscripted all the Charles Simics. But also, as a Chinese dissident, all the benefits you would reap in life would come from the culture you have resentment of. Should it be shameful to be such a dissident, when the very food you just ate was made possible by the system, both in its purchase and by your willing participation. Similarly, to be a published poet, to accept an honorarium, you need to be in cahoots.
This does not mean that I agree with Franz or that I am defending him. I think I am not as opposed as he is to the “MFA system” as it were. It is what it is. It is what we’ve some to. Having a job as a professor in the MFA system would not mean a poet would no longer be a poet. A poet must do something for a living. But I get it about the rant.
I like looking across the pond into the UK to read the poetry that comes from there and the criticisms and reviews that come from there as well. We in the USA, and Canada too, have a true peripheral look at what is going on in another “system”. They use the same words yet what is appreciated as good wordsmithing is different. What the American MFA programs bring about results from a system as well. It can easily move away from greater and essential humanity, because it is becoming institutionalized and therefore of itself. Poetry in this sense is systemic. Thus there is a politics that surrounds what is created and what is lauded. Canadian and US poetry is more intertwined than either is to UK poetry. But so is some of the politics, and so is much of the poetry politics of both sides of the Atlantic.
I wonder. If Franz had said in person what he wrote on Facebook, would he not have been perceived as an animated character instead of a vitriolic mental health patient?
November 19th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
The issue, though, Bill, is not that we need more poets, just more good poetry!
November 19th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
I’m sorry I can’t hear a word if Franz’ poetic argument above the sound of his gunfire. Mean people suck out loud.
November 19th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Meg:
Aren’t we all mean, sometimes?
The way we say things doesn’t always mean that what we say isn’t valid. In fact, the more angry we are might sometimes more accurately validate what we mean.
GBF
November 19th, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Gary, anger might make what a person says more honest, but it rarely leads to solid reasoning.
I disagree with Wright’s overall point about MFA programs because it’s simplistic and inaccurate in too many cases. There may be a nugget of truth buried deep in his screed that applies to some poets, but not enough to make an overall judgment about the MFA as an institution. But that’s not why Wright is facing a backlash right now. The argument over what the MFA does to writing has been going on since the degree was introduced and won’t stop in my lifetime, I’m sure. Wright is getting hammered now because he was a public douche (again) and some people decided to call him on it. That’s all.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:14 am
As someone put it on Twitter, “Franz Wright may be a ‘lil stinker,” but this article is still “poet on poet violence.”
Both the Daily News and the Rumpus pieces come off as a personal attack, not a reasoned response.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:25 am
I also suffered one of his tirades when I posted a comment about a poem of his on my blog. He apparently googles himself and goes off looking to trash and insult people. I was shocked. He is very clearly mentally unstable; he exercises abominably poor judgement and needs behavioral supervision. He is also an excellent poet.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:50 am
Yes, absolutely. And there’s a definite note of malicious glee in some of these attacks. Wahoo, the chance to stomp all over a blazingly talented, Pulitzer Prize winning, very vulnerable poet and look righteous doing it.Does anybody doubt that Wright spoke as he did because he is suffering? And by the way, as others have noted, there were some real chunks of difficult truth in his rant about the MFA programs…
November 20th, 2012 at 5:19 am
Yes. We are all mean at times; I know I am–but this is not one of those times for me. And as I said earlier peace to Franz Wright. That said, and if you are following commentary, you’ve also seen the frequency with which commenters say, “I’ve had a similar experience with FW.” If you believe even half of these claims, then we are talking about a serial offender. The way to stop bullying behavior is zero tolerance.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:28 am
Meg, if you are following commentary, you might have noticed that Franz Wright cannot control his outbursts. He is tortured, ill.The idea of “punishing” such a person with ridicule is simply medieval. I’m with you in wishing him peace…but fear he will never have it. When Franz Wright was fifteen, his father said to him, “I’ll be damned. You’re a poet. Welcome to hell.” Wright Senior didn’t know the half of it.
November 20th, 2012 at 6:06 am
I think he probably can control his outbursts. We can only change ourselves. Yet, in these discussions and over the years, I also perceive a kind permission granted/all is forgiven for the sake of ‘genius’ and I don’t buy it. I think we are talking about learned behavior and I think there’s been a good deal of reinforcement for this behavior. I have little doubt but that this too will be forgiven and will recur. I think FW is better served by a zero tolerance approach. But I understand and accept thst this is improbable. I hope Franz is able to recognize and address his instrumental role in all of this.
November 20th, 2012 at 6:07 am
The only poet he put down is Melanie Braverman, by using her as an example of what comes out of the MFA system. He actually calls her subdoormat as a poet.
There is no other system in the US for a poet to make it as a poet, certainly none as obvious and institutionalized. “What shall we do with our poets here in America,” we seems to have asked. Our answer, a generous answer to a great degree, is, “We’ll create the MFA system.” What Franz is holding witness to is a difference. Where his peripheral point of view seems to be coming from, is what he knows of his father’s time as a poet, then how and that the institutional system has come to be.
What he shouts out with capital letters, is nothing personal to anyone. He is simply fed up with what others have been debating politely. What he does not do is give poets a new direction. He does not use well-placed humor. His rant is nothing more or less than what any two of us might have said each other. The further question is, “If this is all we have, this 20-21st-century MFA creation, then what are we missing, what’s wrong with it?”
The attacks (or even counterattacks, if you prefer) leveled against him are coming out of the MFA system. In China, they arrest dissident poets, sometimes to give them correctional re-education. Institutions justify their own existence in order to grow and perpetuate. But the arrest of the dissident is based on misbehavior, creating unrest, or making rash decisions on a tax issue, the story being that these people are not worth listening to, and should be in prison. House arrest is a favorite tactic in Burma. By not addressing Franz’s points, we are attempting to put him under MFA house arrest. None of us have halos, and all of us can be viewed through our worst behavior. Here we have an MFA dissident poet in Franz Wright, or at least one case of dissident action on his part.
November 20th, 2012 at 6:41 am
Did you mean French Symbolists? None of those poets (Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Mallarmé, Verlaine) is a surrealist…
And hell yeah what Bill Knott says…
November 20th, 2012 at 7:01 am
I’ll admit at times to questioning the validity of the MFA culture, but all-in-all I agree with Bill Knott – there can never be too many poets. Was Wright grossly out of line in the tenor of his facebook post? Yes. But since when has talent been a guarantee of good behavior? Never.
November 20th, 2012 at 7:50 am
I am tired of watching men beat up women (Carolyn, Olga, Melanie, Meg) in public and then hearing how the troubled genius has a point, or the troubled genius just couldn’t help himself. One need only consider his “nice mommies” comment to see that beneath it all–and not too far beneath–his attack is gendered. Poetry has been mommie-ized! Interesting to consider why he lowers his attack on Meg and her low-res MFA program at Pine Manor College and not the big dogs like Iowa. I’ve seen a similar response in academic culture as it became “invaded” by the women and the non-white–accusations of hand-holding, of classrooms filled with breast milk rather than rigor. We’ve just witnessed it played out in national politics–all those right-wing white men appalled by the new face of the electorate, voting to make government mommie-ish, handout out gifts, softening the borders. Yes, Meg can certainly speak for and defend herself, but I am happy to see others join the chorus. Wright’s point about MFA programs is neither here nor there. Sometimes, as in poetry, form is more telling than content.
November 20th, 2012 at 8:17 am
What Diane said. Though, I’ve seen his vitriol directed at men as well. Listen, lets stop romanticizing the tortured genius. We’re all tortured in our way, most of us have the good sense and dignity to not splay our mental health debris all over the community at large.
November 20th, 2012 at 8:51 am
But Russ Bowden got it right. The troubled genius stumbled on something true. The fact that it was outrageous in form, a sort of taloned hairball which he coughed up, doesn’t mean we get to dismiss it. His point about MFA programs is here AND there. And I don’t think we get to dismiss him as a misogynist either. Melanie Braverman was the only woman whose work he specifically savaged. He mentioned prominent male poets (including his own father) as well as women poets who, in his mind, had “sold their souls” for safe teaching jobs.I wonder what Zero Tolerance for this raving poet would involve. Shunning him, isolating him further, like a Caliban? Letting him know he should freaking shut up? But we should be tough enough, or fair enough, to listen to an eccentric brother shout exactly what’s on his mind and not be horrified by it.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:17 am
It is the behavior that deserves zero tolerance,not the person. When one is on the receiving end of such a rant, it is personal. Social media is personal. You don’t make a point with a hammer. If any is isolating
FW, it’s FW. No worries, FW will emerge
Unscathed.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:19 am
What the troubled genius stumbled upon is a truism. Hasn’t the value of MFA programs been debated for a long time? It’s nothing new, it’s just mean, and targeted. The raving and the shouting is the form for a conventional old argument. What should be done with him? I guess what should be done with other playground bullies, which does not include pedestalizing them.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:22 am
Margaret– he can have a point. I can see (and even agree) with part of his point. Have you been on the receiving end of this? Have you been called a stupid f*cking c*unt by the charming Mr. Wright? ( I have) If a man screams abuse at his wife about something he thinks she did wrong but he has a “point”, does that excuse the abusive behavior? FW is a bully. Plain and simple. This is sustained, ongoing behavior. I have many many friends who have encountered this. Almost everyone who has any contact with him has been turned on at one point. Some of us are tired and standing up for ourselves.
As for the mentally ill comment– so are most serial killers. The illness doesn’t excuse the behavior.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Linda–Thank you for your comment, which clears things up. Of course you’re right that there’s no excuse for such nasty, vicious behavior. About all one can do in such a case is read his poems (if they deserve it) and otherwise avoid all contact. And he’ll have the solitude he claims to crave.
November 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I was going to forgo comment on the misogyny card that is being played in this discussion. But as I look at the social dynamics, it smacks of insider politics. Part of this has to do with my observation of his behavior at one or two Dodge Poetry Festivals, when he was milling about with his family. They were enjoying him and he was enjoying them. I was not focused on him other than he and his family were there where I was going a few times. Yet, all that I overheard and saw smacked of love and respect. I also attended at least one discussion group where I looked forward to what he would have to say. Jorie Graham, I believe, was my main attraction to the discussion. But his point of view is worth listening to, I came to find out.
I must be prejudiced by his favorable behavior while some here are prejudiced by his unfavorable. Still and all, there is no misogyny in Franz Wright’s rant. There may be misogyny in some of his life or some of the time, but not all of it and not all of the time. (This negativity prejudice reminds me of a discussion about Sylvia Plath at The Guardian, where it comes to be that there are responders who cannot read her poetry without considering that each poem has something to do with her suicide. I would love to review the suicide scene to discover that she was murdered. If you don’t buy into that, then buy into that too often nowadays her name cannot be mentioned without mentioning Ted Hughes, even though we can review Ted Hughes without mentioning Sylvia Plath. We are not reading her through a prejudice, one could not forgive her for committing suicide with her children in the house.) Anyway . . .
What this conversation seems to be leading to is to never listen to Franz when he mentions a woman by name, because he hates them all (or you all), all of the time. Or at least his writing must be read as if his most unattractive quality is either predominant or salient. I am a witness to that being not true in vivo.
November 20th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
Russ – You don’t understand misogyny. At all. And I don’t have the will or the energy to explain it to you.
November 20th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Diane — Please spell my name R-u-s. That us how my name is spelled. R-u-s-s is how others spell their names.
It’s unfair to say that I don’t understand misogyny. Plain unfair, and smacks of verbal politics, which goes back to the power politics of poetry. You don’t know what I know. As a victim of spousal abuse, I understand some things that I don’t have the energy to explain to you either.
I am very understanding of the prejudice that being the victim creates. I have not put anyone down as you have just tried to put me down.
November 20th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
For me, this is not about misogyny (although I do believe such bent is demonstrated in the behaviors we’ve experienced). It is not about a brilliant poet with a mental illness. It is not about politics. It is not about self-worshiping academia versus the poetic genius struggling in solitude to perfect his understanding. It is not about a troubled childhood or a terrible father. It is not about how you spell your name, Rus.
It’s about bullying. It is about the bully being permitted to bully because of some perceived value that exceeds the value of the victim. It is about everyone on the schoolyard looking the other way while the bully does his bullying and then carrying on in the pretense of ‘that never happened.’ The bully realizes all the benefit of such rants. He gets to be the misunderstood poet genius. He gets to feel like the big hard guy who is delivering the truth to the rest of us pedestrians poem pretenders.
I’m not surprised that Rus’ encounter with FW was positive; such dichotomy is more the rule than the exception with cruel people.
The most important line in RW’s scree, I think, is toward the very end where he says, “and YOU get all the dough,” this is the temper tantrum of a spoiled little boy.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
The Rush Limbaugh comparison is a forced, post-election comparison. I agree with Meg Harris that this is about mental illness, not politics or sexism.
And not just any ole’ mental illness–a phrase people throw around without any nuanced awareness of particular disorders and their symptoms—-but severe Bipolar Disorder. One of the symptoms of Bipolar is irritability/rage. I have Bipolar myself and I can see Wright’s symptoms clear as day (no, I’m not diagnosing him—-it’s already well known that he has severe BPD; I just recognize them).
While people are understandably upset at his outburst, and while I’m not making excuses for him, I also cannot explain to some of you what it feels like to have your brain completely overrun by this horrible disease that ruins friendships, family relationships, and isolates the sufferer in ways unimaginable to the average person. Trust me, folks, he is feeling like utter crap right now, as he’s surely realized the consequences of his behavior. He might not own up to it, but believe me he feels like crap right now and feels further alienated and lone.
Bipolar rage often occurs during mixed episodes of mania and depression, a torturous state of mind wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy, and this was the state—I’m sure—Wright was in when he flew off the handle.
Again, I’m not condoning his actions. Honestly, he should try harder to avoid social media at all costs and be aware of his triggers, but understand that it’s equally offensive to reduce his behavior to sexism or politics. The man has a disease; some diseases—unlike others—manifest in the brain, not the “body,” but that doesn’t make them any less horrendous. I’d hope so-called “liberals” would understand this.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:09 pm
So now I get attacked by you, Meg?
I don’t know Franz. He’s not my favorite poet. He seemed like a nice guy that was having a good time with his family when I saw them in Stanhope last. That should be reported just as David felt his outburst should have been. It was in a previous Dodge that I saw him on a discussion panel and found the ideas he shared interesting.
Am I only suppose to say negative things about him, or else be tagged a bully? Is my asking such a question bullying behavior? Or is the name-calling that is coming my way all of a sudden bullying behavior?
I have Diane saying I don’t know enough to be in this conversation and you saying I am bulling someone.
I have never been in an online discussion with my name being mispelled. I am not bullying by being assertive and asking to please spell it correctly.
On Facebook today, someone shared this quote by Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
We will also come to a better understanding, I guess not only of Franz Wright’s behavior, but each other’s.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
I’m sorry if you felt I attacked you, Rus. That was not my intent! I think you may have misunderstood my point because I don’t think you were bullying anyone. The bully is the guy this thread is about. That said, I’d better go and rereadmy post in case I misspoke somehow.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Nor did I intend to imply that you don’t know enough to be this conversation.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Please note that Joeblow’s good post slipped in, a slip being a post that a newer poster did not see or could not have seen before clicking the submit button. Turns out, it was cleared for display after mine went up.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Now Meg’s and Diane’s good posts slipped in. The conversation is moving so fast.
Thanks both of you.
I’m actually very well schooled and studied in community social psychology. Also, in the undergraduate work, I did a lot on depression and suicide. So I am able to follow along. When I went to Rivier, where I got the bachelors, it was an all-woman school during the day, that I attended at night. I’ve also worked in the mental health field for six years, where I made it a practice to take people at face value. This may be why, more than my practice of reading poetry, that I go to what is being said, versus what any psych diagnosis might be, for either Franz Wright or Sylvia Plath.
November 20th, 2012 at 7:38 pm
>>There may be a nugget of truth buried deep in his screed that applies to some poets, but not enough to make an overall judgment about the MFA as an institution.
Opinion.
November 20th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Indeed. But a far more defensible opinion than Wright’s.
November 20th, 2012 at 10:40 pm
Looks like I misread Meg’s post…or skimmed.
Meg, it might be about bullying, but his behavior is clearly symptomatic of Bipolar rage, and this cannot be ignored. Bipolar sufferers often feel so helpless that they resort to bullying as a way to gain power when they literally have none. Look it up.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:19 am
Well, a bully is a bully, even if he has an illness. Very juvenile, that rant. His poetry doesn’t do much for me. Seems forced, like his “I’m hearing voices” screed.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:56 am
Biespiel addressed NONE of Wright’s points—and he made many.
I discuss them here: http://scarriet.wordpress.com/
The issue is aesthetics and what can/should be taught? The English Department teaches poetry. The MFA program teaches poetry. The essential, institutional difference is crucial.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:21 am
There’s a not so fine line between having a mental illness which might at times impair behavior and simply being an asshole. Frankly, I think it’s insulting to those of us who have suffered from mental illness to explain away this behavior as something the poor fool can’t help. It shows complete and total ignorance of, among other things, the way that psychologists and psychiatrists themselves understand such behavior: pathology should not entail automatic carte blanche, immediate forgiveness, codes of silence, etc. As everyone in “po biz” knows, FW’s been doing this for decades. Calling other poets up and threatening to **kill them** for minor perceived slights in friendly conversation was, for example, an old m.o. of his. His anger at academia may have some “nugget” of truth, just as Rush Limbaugh may at times blunder into the realm of reality (DB’s parallel seems to me a good one.) But look at the other factors. FW himself was employed at the very institution he rails against here (with, by the way, completely misogynist rhetoric, picking on a talented young woman who is far from the powers that be in that institution)and he was *fired* from the place. Look into it; it was not pretty and, yes, it involved misogyny, harassment, abuse, all of which were forgiven and explained away for far too long. This most recent outburst may be “psychotic” in the lazy, common sense of that word, but it seems in fact both calculating and frighteningly idiomatic or “run of the mill” for this individual, in a way that no one afflicted by actual psychosis or in the throes of full-on mania could manage. Surely there are plenty of diagnoses to go around. Narcissism seems to me the obvious one here– narcissism that has been enabled by a tremendous amount of spoiled privilege and by some of the same, lame attitudes on display in many of the above comments.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:38 am
Mike – What you wrote is exactly it. Brilliantly expressed and true. Thank you.
November 21st, 2012 at 9:36 am
Yes! Mike! you got it!
November 21st, 2012 at 9:36 am
Mike,
I wasn’t making excuses for his behavior. I offered a specific point about a particular disorder that should at least be considered because people are discussing his “mental illness” without mentioning his specific “mental illness,” as if all mental illnesses are the same. Of course, feel good, warm-and-fuzzy anti-stigma movements lead by the likes of NAMI and other such organizations would love you to believe that a mild or moderate case of depression is the same as Bipolar I—they love to whitewash and sanitize mental illness so that it’s palatable for the masses—but I’m not buying any of that noise and I’ve seen its larger repercussions in the lives of people with severe mental illnesses. So, your claim that a “bully is a bully” is straight-up bullshit because, as I’ve already said, it is well known amongst psychologists and psychiatrists that bullying is a common behavior associated with Bipolar rage. To point out this reality is not excusing FW’s behavior. Nonetheless, it is important to mention, perhaps so people can have a better understanding of the disease—and/or, perhaps so someone in Franz’s life can help him avoid his triggers.
“Frankly,” though, amidst all of your sanctimonious self-righteousness, it is interesting that you are so ready to dispense with any side of “mental illness” that might harm others under some guise that admitting such uncomfortable realities reinforces ignorance. Actually, it works in the opposite direction: discussing mental illness honestly benefits those with mental illness a lot more than only discussing the parts that make don’t make most people uncomfortable; we need to have frank discussions about those aspects of mental illness most would prefer to ignore. Many Bipolar sufferers in the throes of mania do not have control over their brains. Pretending like this is not a harsh reality of Bipolar disorder is more offensive than anything I’ve posted, because it essentially minimizes an integral component of the disease. Please tell me again that I have control over my brain when I can’t sleep for two straight nights, become paranoid, can’t leave my house because of anxiety, etc. Please tell me that my mental illness doesn’t actually exist. Wonderfully compassionate of you!
Now, if you wish to continue to read my posts as mere excuse making, go on ahead. Or, if you have the guts to have a brutally honest discussion of severe mental illness that’s not steeped in political correctness, we can do that too.
November 21st, 2012 at 9:48 am
“This most recent outburst may be “psychotic” in the lazy, common sense of that word, but it seems in fact both calculating and frighteningly idiomatic or “run of the mill” for this individual, in a way that no one afflicted by actual psychosis or in the throes of full-on mania could manage”–Mike
Um, what? Someone asked him to “like” an MFA page on Facebook, a page representing a program he’s dealt with positively in the past, and he posted a completely irrational public screed against the program director, one filled with typos, personal attacks, and logical fallacies…all because she asked him to “like” a Facebook page. There’s absolutely nothing “calculating” there at all.
November 21st, 2012 at 10:23 am
Thomas Brady Graves Scarriet, there’s a problem with your reply to Biespiel’s piece, namely that Biespiel wasn’t talking about Wright’s tired position on MFA programs. He was talking, instead, about Wright’s bullying behavior. Pretty much everyone else on this thread figured that out, even those who disagree with Biespiel’s assessment. It’s not a weakness of this blog post that it doesn’t address what you wish it had addressed.
November 21st, 2012 at 11:17 am
Brian Spears, I agree that Thomas Brady Grave Scarriet’s blog post is off on an irrelevant tangent!
November 21st, 2012 at 12:06 pm
What an enjoyable read. As someone that has no “dog in this hunt”, it opened up a debate that I’ve not yet taken part in. I found this piece via Hubski: http://hubski.com/pub?id=46413 and would encourage Mr. Bielpiel to check out the comments there as well. An interesting discussion emerging on the nature of higher learning and the trauma it entails.
I’m enjoying being a fly on the wall for this fight.
November 21st, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Carolyn Forche is one of the kindest people I’ve ever known; obviously this man is unhinged.
I aggree with Mike; narcissism is the real culprit. Mental health issues are extremely difficult to deal with, I know first-hand. However, they are not a one-way ticket to being a misogynist or having other major personality issues. People always have choice; the pharmaceutical companies and doctors would like to have us think that is not true. And please, in general do not call it MENTAL ILLNESS. Think about the stigma you are perpetuating with that term. ILLNESS is such an ugly word.
Rewording the terminology is empowering: Mental Health Issues are something that people can contend with, makes choices about… Mental ilness is too damning a term.
November 21st, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Some of you do realize that Wright has been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, right? And yet, you continue to ignore this fact and diagnose him yourselves with “narcissism.”
And Julia, while it’s true that Bipolar people can make choices (no one has said otherwise), it’s also true that the disorder itself–the one none of you will acknowledge, the one that Wright was diagnosed with as a teen–is a debilitating disease.
You and others have your heads buried in the sand if you don’t think there’s a connection between his outbursts and his Bipolar disorder. Obviously, it’s a lot easier for you to deal with the uncomfortable realities of his disorder by pretending it doesn’t have any bearing on his behavior, or reducing his behavior to pathology, sexism and politics (easy and safe to do). To top it off, it’s obviously easy for you to pretend like you care about mentally ill people by implying that those of us who are honest are reinforcing stereotypes/stigma or other such nonsense.
November 21st, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Joe Blow, I feel properly equipped to speak about it in ANY terms. The Icarus Project is something I believe in, and it seems like a proper time for a mention:
http://theicarusproject.net/
November 21st, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Well, I was diagnosed at 14 too–back when it wasn’t a fad to diagnose children as Bipolar. I’m sorry, but I have a lot of problems with your approach and your desire to eradicate words like “illness,” or to associate mental disorders with a bunch of anti-pych new age mysticism. Talk about privilege. Homeless Schizophrenics living under a bridge don’t have time for your approach. They need meds, and they need hospital beds.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Joe, I think we’re veering far from the issue here. I am a therapist and have coped with mental issues/illness in my own family for most of my life. If Mr. Wright is ill, he has my sympathy and empathy, but to excuse his behavior because of his illness is not helpful to him or to those he has victimized. Probably most tyrants are diagnosable, but that does not exempt them from the consequences of their actions and words. Addiction, for instance, is a disease, but addicts are still accountable for their actions while drunk or high. Accountability is one element of the journey toward health.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:24 pm
You obviously have anger towards the system, as I have. But, don’t go around dismissing people’s diagnoses as fads. Not evoryone may need meds, nor does everyone want to insitutionalize themself and give their souls away. There needs to be alternatives within the Metal Health sector. Renaming it Mental Health, rather than Mental Illness, is the first step in giving people dignity as they try to crave out a space for themself in a society where they do not always fit. Btw, The Icarus Project is not new-agey at all. If anything, I would call it punk. And also, you sound very cranky. I am going to leave this conversation, for risk of becoming cranky, too.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Diane,
Franz Wright is Bipolar, which is common knowledge in the literary world. Not sure why you wrote “if he’s ill.” You of all people should be aware of his diagnosis, the one he’s written about endlessly. Second, I never claimed he wasn’t accountable for his actions.
Julia,
I never dismissed your own diagnosis as a fad. I simply mentioned that I was diagnosed before BPD became a fad diagnosis, so that there wouldn’t be any question about my own authority to discuss these issues.
I disagree so strongly with the rest of your post that I’m not even going to bother responding to it in detail, other than to say that the phrase “mental health” has done a world of damage to people with severe mental illnesses. There is a difference between general “health” and “disease,” and it’s a disgrace that you want to diminish those distinctions because you think it will benefit people with mental illnesses; it’s like suggesting that a person with cancer doesn’t have a disease but is instead “unhealthy.” I’m done with this thread.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Joe – I’m weary of the argument, but I’ll just say this: I said “if he’s ill” because I don’t want to be presumptuous about anyone’s health.
November 21st, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Ok, I lied, and am back, because mental health activism is something I am committed to. I meant to say in my earlier post that we should de-stigmatize labels by renaming what we as a society call metal illness as mental health issues. Joe, if someone has issues, they are something THEY can attempt to take control of. There is not one way to heal.
The fact that we are having such a conversation in a poetry posting is interesting to me. What we name things is highly important.
November 21st, 2012 at 5:55 pm
There is nothing in Franz Wright’s rant that necessarily points to whatever his struggles with bipolar disorder may have been.
One way to stigmatized someone is to continually talk about it in relation to all he or she does and writes.
This is a way of harming Franz. So if you would like to abuse him or bully him, then carry on.
He is making points in the rant. Agree with them or don’t, like his point of view or don’t, but it’s grossly unfair to create a near-hundred response thread in a blog of a respected poet and editor to display him in the worst light.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:08 pm
“There is nothing in Franz Wright’s rant that necessarily points to whatever his struggles with bipolar disorder may have been.”
Oh please. Give me a break. Franz has a history of going off people online for no reason and had no “point” to make in his rant. Others have already done a good job pointing out his hypocrisy and numerous logical fallacies. The rant is damn near incoherent and not written for someone rational. I’m not further stigmatizing him by considering his post in relation to a history or pattern of behavior and I find it hilarious that you think my posts are “bullying” him. Haha.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:08 pm
Rus – He displayed HIMSELF in the worst light.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:10 pm
“There is nothing in Franz Wright’s rant that necessarily points to whatever his struggles with bipolar disorder may have been.”
Oh please. Give me a break. Franz has a history of going off on people online for no reason and had no “point” to make in his rant. Others have already done a good job of pointing out his hypocrisy and numerous logical fallacies. The rant is damn near incoherent and not written by someone rational or sane (at that particular moment). I’m not further stigmatizing him by considering his post in relation to a history or pattern of behavior and I find it hilarious that you think my posts are “bullying” him.
Second of all, what a bizarre post from you, since you basically agreed with my first post that said the same things I’ve said in later posts.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:19 pm
Hi Joeblow,
It’s not just you. The entire thread has become about his diagnosis and nothing about the rant, which I understand.
The rant, by the way, goes against the system, not against people per se. For instance, above in this thread, the rant is misread as being against Carolyn Forche. It is not.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:24 pm
And yet, there’s nothing in his life or poetry that suggests he himself isn’t part of the system. Secondly, it wasn’t the appropriate time or place. Someone asked him to “like” a Facebook page. I think I once liked my Grandmother’s Facebook page for her cat without giving it much thought.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:42 pm
It was not inappropriate. I was a friggin Facebook response, a riff of opinion, an informal response in an informal venue.
It was taken wrong.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Yikes. This has become ugly.
I am re-posting my comment from way back up there on the thread:
“I just wanted to say that many of you would do well to reread, and more carefully consider, exactly what Mr. Wright is saying about contemporary poetry.”
You are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with how things were said, or the tone, or the anger, or the “mental health” of the speaker.
It has to do with WHAT HE’S SAYING!
It has to do with POETRY!
.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Taken wrong by half the human race.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Gary – Is he really saying something earth-shattering? This is not news.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:05 pm
Diane — taken wrong nonetheless. And yet, how many people really care about this like we do. Half the human race are not poets. And then not all poets are in the MFA system, which seem to be the ones reeling instead of reading–earth shattering or not. It’s true, some of the threads that have resulted from Franz’ rant are discussing the merits of his point of view, or at least picking the subject up once again, while this thread talks about his mental health.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Rus said:
‘It’s true, some of the threads that have resulted from Franz’ rant are discussing the merits of his point of view, or at least picking the subject up once again, while this thread talks about his mental health”
Rus, can you link to some of these threads?
GBF
P.S. Hello again, old friend. Have you heard from Terreson lately? I know he had surgery due to cancer, but he seems to have completely disappeared from his poetry forum ‘Delectable Mountains’. Is he okay?
Gary
November 21st, 2012 at 9:11 pm
Chr*st, people, I think we’ve attacked this article from every possible angle. I, for one, am tired of it all! Let’s move on…
November 21st, 2012 at 9:24 pm
HI Gary,
Come to think of it, no, I have not heard from Tere.
Two were linked to above:
http://hubski.com/pub?id=46413
http://scarriet.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/the-controversial-franz-wright-punk-or-prophet/
I’m not joining those conversations, by the way. I thought Dawn Potter’s response, the second response, in the scarriet thread was interesting. Where most everyone is coming from is outside the MFA system, whether that’s for the good or the bad or wherever in between. It seems that when that’s the case, when Franz’ rant is read from the outside, which is where I am as well. I have my disagreements with most of the responders, but the disagreements are on either how they read Franz, or within their responses to his point of view.
November 21st, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Whoever moderated my previous post out, please post it up.
November 21st, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Gary,
You must live under a rock if you think he’s saying something new or provocative about poetry via MFA program conspiracy theories. There’s nothing in his rant that hasn’t been said a million times already. Even if one were to agree with some of his points, it’s not like those points were bravely broached by him. I assume you’ve been out of the MFA bashing loop for the, oh, past two decades.
November 22nd, 2012 at 5:29 am
I believe that my response to Gary is held up in moderation because it contains links.
The links I posted are are the scarriet.wordpress link and the hubski one with the /pub?id=46413 at the end. I’ve held back here on putting in the dot com.
I did not copy the post before clicking “submit comment” but went on to say that . . .
The second response in the scarriet dot com thread, the one by Dawn Potter, I found interested. Being outside the inside group makes it easier to read his rant for what it is.
I am not participating in those discussions, but I do not agree with much of the points and counterpoints being made about the relative merits of the MFA system and individuals, nor of what might be right or wrong with his off-the-cuff critique of the system.
These are posts that are visiting what Franz said in the post, and are by poets who are not within the MFA system.
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:58 am
Pretention at its best. Just have a left handed slapping contest in the classics library.
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:44 am
Rus, I dug your comment with the links out of the moderation queue and posted it. But a word of advice: when talking about issues like misogyny, it’s not the best tactic to simply dismiss the feelings of others, particularly those who face sexism and misogyny on a daily basis in a way that neither you nor I can even begin to imagine, with a flip comment like “It was taken wrong.” That’s insulting, and it makes you look arrogant. It doesn’t matter if you meant it that way–that’s the way it’s going to come off to a large percentage of the people you’re talking to, and if you’re trying to talk to them rather than at them, then you just failed.
Gary B. Fitzgerald, the content of Wright’s rant was not the subject of Biespiel’s post, which is likely why no one responded to your earlier comment. As many others have pointed out, there are other places on the web where that conversation is taking place. This post was about Wright’s pattern of conduct over the years, not about Wright’s view of the MFA in poetry, except in the sense that Wright is a little guilty of hypocrisy on the matter.
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:56 am
HI Brian,
I insulted no one. And will link to it no longer either at facebook.
To be so selective on point of view as to misread what I said, and then have the audacity to give me advice on how to behave online, is just too nervy and prejudiced.
I’m off this site.
Yours,
Rus
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:59 am
I will link here no longer either from my column or from my FB page, is what I meant to say.
What you don’t get is that this thread has been a flame against Franz Wright. That’s how poor your judgment is as a moderator. I was feeling that someone should have come in yesterday and put a halt to the abuse that was going on.
November 22nd, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Brian Spears said:
“Gary B. Fitzgerald, the content of Wright’s rant was not the subject of Biespiel’s post, which is likely why no one responded to your earlier comment. As many others have pointed out, there are other places on the web where that conversation is taking place. This post was about Wright’s pattern of conduct over the years, not about Wright’s view of the MFA in poetry, except in the sense that Wright is a little guilty of hypocrisy on the matter “.
I would only note:
“Abusive ‘argumentum ad hominem’ (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one’s opponents in order to attack their claims or invalidate their arguments, but can also involve pointing out true character flaws or actions that are irrelevant to the opponent’s argument. This is logically fallacious because it relates to the opponent’s personal character, which has nothing to do with the logical merit of the opponent’s argument.”
(from Wikipedia)
GBF
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Except that Biespiel wasn’t trying to invalidate Wright’s argument (such as it existed in that Facebook post), so your Wikipedia quote doesn’t really apply. He wasn’t claiming that Wright’s argument had no merit because he was acting like a jerk. He was stating that Wright has acted like a jerk for a long time now, and as such, reminds him of Rush Limbaugh. There was no connection made between Wright’s conduct and the quality of his argument.
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Brian Spears said:
“Except that Biespiel wasn’t trying to invalidate Wright’s argument (such as it existed in that Facebook post), so your Wikipedia quote doesn’t really apply. He wasn’t claiming that Wright’s argument had no merit because he was acting like a jerk. He was stating that Wright has acted like a jerk for a long time now, and as such, reminds him of Rush Limbaugh. There was no connection made between Wright’s conduct and the quality of his argument.”
Then why doesn’t Mister Biespiel simply address the point made instead of the person making it?
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:36 pm
You’re basically suggesting that there’s never a reason to call someone out when they act like a jerk. I disagree. Obviously so does Biespiel.
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:58 pm
I don’t think the Limbaugh comparison works well at all. Limbaugh is a college drop out and drug addict who has done nothing with his life other than make ill-informed, mean-spirited pronouncements.
Franz Wright is a wonderful and original poet. He went too far in his comments and he stated them badly and baldly.
Having said that, his point about the number of prize winning poets who do not teach is worth noting. Look at the Morrow Anthology. Every poet in that anthology teaches somewhere.
I think Wright’s whole point is that there are many mansions in the kingdom of poetry and that, right now, a MFA appears to many people to be the only entrance to the kingdom.
November 23rd, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Actually, there really is no reason to call someone out when they act like a jerk. Doesn’t that make you a jerk too?
Who’s the bully here?
November 24th, 2012 at 8:53 am
Although, having been called a c*#t by Mr. Wright on FB and having been attacked by him in the comments of one of my online articles, I am probably not entirely objective, IMHO this is exactly right. People have noted here that Wright suffers from a mental illness. Sad and true. However, mental illness and being a misogynistic, entitled asshole are not mutually exclusive. As Mr. Wright has demonstrated yet once more.
November 24th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Wright (like many other poets, I would note) can be a nasty unit. This is common knowledge. This might even be an intentional M.O.
Still, have you no comment on what he was actually saying about poetry today?
It’s true! The Academic/Publishing complex has, for all intents and purposes, literally
destroyed poetry today.
Why is this all about how much of an asshole someone is rather than about the point he made? Being an asshole doesn’t make one wrong.
November 25th, 2012 at 3:41 am
According to Franz, he has been diagnosed with bipolar and schizo affective disorder. The latter is very hard to treat and to control. It is characterized by delusions and paranoid behavior. Medications help, but those affected often experience episode, even with medications.
November 25th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
This thread is so frustruating.
I requested earlier for people to CONSIDER using the term mental health issues instead of mental illness. Mental health issues affect everyone; if not indirectly, at some point, almost everyone is affected. Using the term illness creates undue stigma. It seems this discussion of how to hold someone accountable for their actions errs on the side of forgetting that, no matter what, our words hold power. Words can hurt. You are all poets, MFA ones: yes? Can’t we do better that this? The diction used above is quite careless. when addressing mental health issues, I encourage you all to imagine your families, friends and loved ones as the individual you are discussing and then chose your words based on that.
No one, maybe expect Joe Blow, wants to be called ill for the rest of their lives. If they are privilaged enough to have health care, they are already most likely being told they will need to be medicated for life, in therapy for life; the last thing a person dealing with that wants is to be told they are ILL on top of it. Give some power back to the people who are struggling to just say alive each day. Stop stigmatizing those dealing with mental health issues. Be aware of your diction, poets.
November 25th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Julia, are you referring to my post?
November 25th, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Regarding the use of the term “mental illness”…Franz has a collection called ILL LIT. And in the following interview the term “mental illness” is used. There is no stigma attached to the term and Franz is very open about his suffering in that regard. I recommend that people listen to this interview. It tells us a lot about Wright, his challenges, and how he views art. http://m.npr.org/story/1851833?storyId=1851833
Many of our best poet have suffered from mental conditions such as Wright’s: Frost, Berryman, Roethke and Sexton to name a few. Their poems are their gifts to us and the best of them show us the way to empathy and generosity even as we read about the terror that is life. As readers and poets we know this. We can respond with cynicism or with generosity.
November 27th, 2012 at 10:45 am
Here’s a thoughtful reply to this article:
http://www.massreview.org/blog/wright-defense
Rather than skate over the real issues, “Wright Defense” brings up good points to think about.
November 27th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Yes, yes, he is a bully and a tyrant and a woman-hater and a stunning egoist, but honestly I feel sorrier for Franz Wright than I can even express. And I say that both as someone who lives with chronic mental health challenges herself and also as someone whom Wright has attacked online (although, happily, I got out of the line of fire rather quickly and he got bored).
Wright is clearly terribly, terribly ill. He is to be pitied more than anything else. That said, he is (in my opinion) also a bully, and my guess is that he would be a bully without the mental health challenges. It’s just who he is: a very sad, very angry guy who wants to make sure that other people suffer as he does.
I actually do think he cares about poetry (although he doesn’t seem to know much about the kind of money most non-tenured writers in academia make… trust me, for most of us it’s barely enough to pay the rent on a one-bedroom apartment). His Rilke translations are wonderful, as is some (though not all) of his own work. But his sputtering rage toward and fear of ideas that are even slightly different than his own–his blinding egoism and myopic view of not only the world but of aesthetic possibility in general–finally limits not only his life but his work. He wants desperately to be his dad, but he can’t be.
It’s a shame, but also fairly simple. Franz Wright is to be pitied for his behavior, respected for the aspects of his work that are worthwhile, and steered clear of as much as is humanly possible.
November 27th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
A., thanks for the link to the article.
An interesting book is Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament by Kay Redfield Jamison.
A lot of people have attacked Franz for having a “pure” notion of what poetry is, but I think perhaps for Franz and others like him, writing is very spiritual and a lifeline, a kind of salvation. Many poets have had a similar relationship to their writing. John Berryman’s ex-wife, who wrote POETS IN THEIR YOUTH, for instance, spoke of how writing had saved Berryman, kept him from falling sooner. Under the circumstances, it’s easy to understand why writing would be so important for Franz. I admire his dedication to his writing.
Only Franz knows the depth of his suffering and the price he pays. What seems like cruelty to us might be an expression of his intense agony, but who can say? We can’t know, and because we can’t know, the situation becomes a mirror, reflecting ourselves back to us.
November 27th, 2012 at 10:42 pm
You know who should really be pitied? His wife.
November 28th, 2012 at 5:05 pm
At at rate, Happy Birthday William Blake!
November 28th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Let’s try this again:
At any rate…Happy Birthday William Blake.