Dear Sugar,
Three of my best college buddies and I go away for an annual guys weekend at a cabin in the woods.
We’re all in our mid-thirties and we’ve been doing these get-togethers for close to a decade. It’s our way of staying in touch, since we’ve all got busy lives and some of us reside in different cities. Though at times I’ll go months without talking to them, I consider these guys my closest friends. We’ve seen each other through several relationships, two weddings, one divorce, one of us coming out as gay, one of us realizing he’s an alcoholic and getting sober, one of us becoming a father, dysfunctional family issues, the death of another one of our close college friends, professional successes and failures, and—you get the picture.
On our most recent get together a few months ago, I overheard my friends discussing me. Before this incident occurred, the four of us had been on the subject of my love life. My long-time girlfriend and I broke up last year for reasons I won’t go into here, but I did go into with my friends back when she and I decided to end things. Not long before my weekend with the guys, she and I got back together and I told them my ex and I were making a go of it again. They didn’t say much in response, but I wouldn’t have expected them to.
Later that day I stepped out for a walk, but soon realized I’d forgotten my hat, so I returned to the cabin to get it. The moment I opened the door I could hear my friends in the kitchen discussing me. I wasn’t trying to eavesdrop, but I couldn’t keep myself from listening, since they were talking about my girlfriend and me. I wouldn’t say they were trashing me, but they did make critical remarks about the way I “justify” my relationship and other things about my personality that were unflattering. About five minutes into this, I opened the door and shut it hard so they would know I was there and they stopped talking.
I tried to pretend I didn’t hear what they’d said, but soon I told them what had happened. They were extremely embarrassed. Each of them apologized, assured me they meant nothing by what they said, and claimed they were only concerned that I’d gotten back together with my girlfriend, who they don’t think is good for me. I played it off like it was cool and acted like I wanted to let bygones be bygones, but it’s been a few months and I’m still bothered by what happened. I feel betrayed. It’s none of their business who I choose to date for one thing and for another I’m pissed they were running me down like that.
I recognize that I’m possibly taking this too hard. I’ll admit that I have talked about each of them with the others over the years. I’ve made statements I wouldn’t want the person in question to hear, even secondhand. The rational part of me understands that these sorts of discussions among friends are to be expected. It sounds weak to admit this, but I’m hurt. Part of me wants to tell them to go fuck themselves when it comes to the weekend at the cabin next year. What do you think? Should I forgive and forget or find new a batch of buddies?
Odd Man Out
Dear Odd Man Out,
What a disaster. How dreadful it must have been to hear your friends saying negative things about you. How mortified they must have felt when they learned you’d been listening. You have every reason to be upset and hurt. And yet….and yet—you knew there was going to be an “and yet,” didn’t you?—in the scheme of things this is quite small, quite ordinary. I’m positive you should not toss these friends aside for a new batch of them.
Besides—those new friends? They’d only talk about you behind your back too. But I’m getting ahead of myself.
Perhaps the first step in getting over this is to talk to your friends and collectively acknowledge that what happened was indeed deeply unfortunate. By hearing what you were not meant to hear you punctured a social code that’s in place to protect your feelings. You heard your friends express opinions about you that they are too polite to tell you and they expressed them in blunt language they would not have used had they known you were listening. You witnessed a discussion that was being had about you that was unbound by concern for your feelings. No wonder you feel so stung. Anyone would.
That your friends have those opinions, however, does not mean that they don’t love you or value you as a friend or otherwise think you are one of the best people they know. That may be difficult to believe at this moment, when your feelings are so raw, but it’s true.
We talk about our friends behind their backs. We do. Ask any social scientist who has studied human communication behaviors. Even you admitted to doing this. Our friends are witness to our attributes and flaws, our bad habits and good qualities, our contradictions and our contrivances. That they need to occasionally discuss the negative aspects of our lives and personalities in terms less than admiring is to be expected. Like anything, there are healthy and constructive ways to do this and unhealthy and destructive ways.
A healthy way is rooted in respect and love. In this case, we make critical assessments and uncomplimentary observations entirely within the context of our affection and concern for the individual in question. Sometimes we talk behind a friend’s back in order to grapple with our doubts about or disapproval of the choices he or she has made. Sometimes we do it because our friends possess qualities that confound, confuse, or annoy the shit out of us, though we love them anyway. Sometimes we discuss our friends with others because we had a weird or rude or dumb interaction with one of them and we simply need to blow off steam. The baseline of these discussions is a grounded knowledge that we love and care for the friend—regardless of the things that irk, confuse, or disappoint us about him or her. The negative thoughts we express about this friend are outweighed by the many positive thoughts we have.
An unhealthy way to talk about a friend behind his or her back is rooted in cruelty, ill will and oftentimes jealousy. There is a lack of generosity and a cutting glee; one takes pleasure in ripping the so-called friend to shreds. Though we may pretend otherwise, we don’t truly want good things for him or her. We like to take him or her down a peg. We are judgmental and petty. We will not protect that friend, but are instead willing to betray him or her if the situation serves us. On the other hand, we are happy to use this “friendship” to our advantage, should the opportunity arise. Our affection is one of convenience rather than heart.
So. There’s a good way and a bad way to gossip, but either way it pretty much sucks to overhear it if you happen to be the subject of the conversation. There is no question that given what happened, Odd Man Out, you and your friends are going to have to repair a bit of damage. I believe that with some time, you can do that.
It seems clear to me that your friends were discussing you from a place of love and concern—the healthy place. My hunch is that your friends were unconsciously attempting to strengthen their bond with you rather than rend it when they were discussing you that day at the cabin. After all, when this “incident” occurred, you’d just informed them that you’d reunited with a woman they all apparently believe—fairly or not—is a negative force in your life. If they didn’t care about you, they wouldn’t have bothered to discuss this turn of events. Because they do care about you, they began speaking about it the moment they believed you were out of earshot. Collectively, they hashed out their feelings—in preparation, perhaps, to share a watered down version of them with you.
This is this because they love you. Don’t lose sight of that just because you all got caught in an embarrassing situation that I’ll guess every last one of us can imagine being on both sides of.
I suggest that you talk to your friends again about what happened, only this time you do it more forthrightly. No doubt, your hurt feelings are lingering in part because you so quickly attempted to brush them aside. Let the dudes in the woods debacle bring you closer to your friends rather than force you apart. Use this awkward experience as an opportunity to clear the air on the subject of your girlfriend and whatever it is your dearest friends think you’re justifying about your relationship with her. Tell them how hurt you were to hear what they said. Tell them why you think they are wrong. Tell them why you love your girlfriend and why they should be open to loving her too. Then ask them why they said what they did about you and her and do your best to listen.
Your choice of romantic partners is none of their business, it’s true, but the reason they have an opinion about it is because they want you to have a good life. They know you. They have listened to what you’ve told them about your relationship with this woman and they’ve made their own observations. I’m not suggesting that you dump your girlfriend because your friends don’t like her, but rather that you hear what they have to say. Perhaps they have a negative opinion of her because when you broke up with her and shared the story of that break up with your friends you cast her in an inaccurately unflattering light. Perhaps they simply don’t know what they’re talking about and you need to set them straight. Perhaps they see something you cannot see right now, blinded as you may be by desire for this relationship to work.
We can’t know. Time will tell. But I encourage you to swallow your pride and hear your friends out, to look at the image of yourself they’re reflecting back to you. It might be useful. It might piss you off. It might help you get over the tender feelings you have about what happened at the cabin. The complicated thing about friends is that sometimes they are totally wrong about us and sometimes they are totally right and it’s almost always only in retrospect we know which is which.
I have this dear friend I’ll call Beth. She fell in love fast and hard with a guy I’ll call Tom. Over the course of a year or two Tom took Beth on a ride of highs and lows. There was love, deception, abandonment, lies, passion, promises, and a whole bunch of absolute bullshit. She was up. She was down. She was standing on my front stoop shaking and crying or calling me to say how amazing Tom was. When I’d been witness to this relationship long enough that I’d formed my own opinion about it, I began sharing my concerns with Beth. I was gentle at first, but before long I could not keep myself from telling her exactly what I thought in the most blunt terms: this man was a player and by not ridding herself of him, Beth was only bringing pain upon herself.
It took another several months and false starts and betrayals before she believed I was right. By then she’d wished she’d listened to what I said way back when, but the thing is, I wouldn’t have listened either. Who does what a friend tells her to do? I can’t say I ever have, even when later I fully recognized that I should’ve.
After a while Beth began dating another guy. I’ll call him Dave. About a month into their relationship she called me up and told me they were engaged.
“To be married?” I stuttered, trying to conceal my disapproval and fear that this Dave person was going to be another disaster, another Tom.
“Yes! I know it’s fast, but we’re in love and we’re getting married,” she said. She was sure. He was great. She was so happy. She knew this was right.
I spent a half hour asking her one question after another in tone of voice that I hoped sounded upbeat, but when I hung up I didn’t feel upbeat. I felt worried. I immediately emailed another of Beth’s close friends—a woman with whom I’m only acquainted. I asked her what she thought about this crazy business of Beth getting married to this guy she’d only been dating for a month. We went back and forth, discussing Beth. We shared with each other her tendencies when it came to men, our observations of her strengths and her weaknesses, the things we hoped for her and also feared. We knew her. We loved her. We wanted her to be happy, but we were talking shamelessly about her behind her back.
Months later, after Beth married Dave, after I realized Dave really did make Beth happy and that he was good not just to her, but for her, I told her what I’d done. I told her how I’d emailed her friend because I’d been distressed about how quickly she and Dave had committed to each other. I could see the tension cross her face as I informed her that two of her best friends had been discussing her. I could understand why it made her feel defensive and uncomfortable. Who were we to weigh in on the subject of who she married and how fast? I understood that completely.
But I also understood who it was we were. We were two of her best friends. We were the people who listened to her tell all those awful and glorious stories about Tom and we would be the people who would be there for her regardless of how things turned out with Dave. We would be her friends no matter what. Because we loved her. If she needed us, we would go to her any time. We would stand by her. She knew this and I knew the same about her. I knew she’d always tell me the truth, even if it hurt, and I also knew that she’d take care not to hurt me. I knew over the course of our friendship she too might have opinions or concerns about me that she’d opt to discuss with someone else in words that would be best for me not to hear. And I knew that was okay, that it was a perfectly natural part of sustaining a true friendship over many years, that it wasn’t a betrayal, but a blessing.
That’s what you have in these men, Odd Man Out. True friends. Real blessings. Forgive them. Feel lucky you have them. Move along.
Yours,
Sugar
31 responses
You are correct, Sugar, this is nothing that any of us hasn’t done before. What makes me sad is that I don’t even have anyone to go to a cabin with that isn’t related by blood or marriage. People have to think about you before they can talk about you.
Good, lovely stuff as always, Sugar. It sucks to overhear for sure, but I agree with you, it’s clear it comes from a place of love.
I’ve recently come to terms with the issue that you explain so wonderfully here, Sugar: that good, loving relationships have ups and downs that both completely and magnificently contribute to the overall bond between people. It is exquisitely humbling to work out an issue or a disagreement with a friend, spouse or partner. To have someone in your life that may bug the shit out of you at times, or make decisions you wouldn’t necessarily make, but ultimately shares the common goal of strengthening and maintaining the relationship is something to truly be grateful for.
Thank you for reminding us of that, OMO and Sugar.
I felt sorrier for the friends than the letter writer in the scenario he described. I’ve gotten stuck in that trap before – your friend breaks up with a significant other and you are so relieved to see your friend freed of that emotional baggage that you then express your opinions (which you had been oh so tactfully keeping to yourself). Then, friend gets back together with the wretched ex and you have to go back to pretending to be supportive. It’s such a relief when another mutual friend starts the conversation about how terrible the situation is and wonders how your friend got sucked back into it.
Odd Man Out should continue to cultivate his friendship with these guys, maybe even reach out to them more than one weekend a year. He definitely should not drop them for a group of friends no doubt influenced by his girlfriend.
Wonderful and thoughtful advice. We often don’t think about the backlash that can occur when we gossip and get caught doing so.
Spin, spin, Sugar. Not to trivialize, because you give such wondrous advice, I have to say that this issue is so relatable is every person’s life. Specifics here as far as the friends go, and annual cabin adventures (so thrilled I do not have that one in my repertoire) and yet, I was nodding my head over and over. Plus, I like that you explored this about guys versus the stereotype, which is that only women do this sort of bullshit. We’re all human, and we all make mistakes. In fact, that is part of what makes of human. We’re mess-making machines. It’s all about how we clean those messes up. Or not, as you so carefully point out. Bravo!
i know which of my friends would talk about me and they are the ones i never tell anything too personal to because when they talk, it’s really about them. i don’t believe all that “it’s because we love you” stuff.
I was hoping you’d answer a question about friendship sometime soon. This is really good advice. I’ve been on both sides, like you point out most of us have. I hope this guy takes your advice. Friendships have to ride through the difficulties. Thanks for more beautiful insight.
In terms of getting back together with an ex and your friends reacting ambivalently towards that, this commenter on another blog site has this to say.
I’d have to agree with Betsy. In this specific incident, given the letter writer’s long history with these friends and all they have been through together, I would be willing to believe that it is all from a place of love. But sometimes it just isn’t. Many of us have people in our social circles who are there because of other people we are actually close to, reasons of proximity, shared interest, professional connections and so on. And it’s important not to excuse their breaches of privacy, bitching and behind-the-scene maneuverings on the basis of love. Trust is a delicate thing. Some people deserve it unconditionally, for some it’s “three strikes and you’re out”.
This is very wise. You have helped me to understand some things about myself and to make some conscious distinctions that I needed to make. Thank you.
Thank you for this, Sugar. I’ve been on both sides of this situation and I have to say your answer is golden.
I try not to say anything behind someone’s back I wouldn’t say to their face. If I wouldn’t phrase it that way when they’re staring at me I probably shouldn’t when they’re not in the room. If nothing else people talk and it just makes it worse when that shit gets back to them third or fourth hand, and maybe then they’re too wounded to even talk it out with you.
Thank you for pointing out that the issue isn’t “do my friends talk about me,” but “how and why do they talk about me?”. Just over a year ago I hurt my best friend pretty badly by discussing her with her boyfriend when I though she couldn’t hear us. Both of us were expressing our concerns for her needs and wondering what we could do to help, but it still came across as really hurtful. The good news is that after we’d fought it out the next day, things got better between us. We’re still as close as ever, BF is still in the picture, and we’re all okay.
At the same time, I have the opposite scenario at work. I have a frenemy who I know talks about me behind my back in the worst possible way. I know this because she does it to every one we work with. Oddly, I’ve actually gotten closer to some of my other co-workers b’c of it; when she gleefully shares another piece of gossip I make a mental note to be more compassionate to that person. None of them have ever told me what she says about me behind my back (though I’ve got a good guess – she’s not subtle) but I’ve noticed these same co-workers going out of their way to compliment me in front of her. I’ve also noticed that in our smallish, fairly close knit department, people have become very closed off about their personal lives in her presence.
That’s what makes the difference between a friend you fight to keep and the person you keep at arm’s length – The enemy delights in your suffering, the friend is distressed by it. The friend may be concerned, even angered by your faults, but the enemy revels in them.
This is one of my favorite Sugar columns ever, not least because I get so tired (not here, just in general) of people framing behaviors in gender-specific stereotypes, so the fact that this letter is from a guy is particularly refreshing.
I think Sugar’s take is spot-on. Sure, we all have friends who are gossips and who have an unpleasant degree of schadenfreude in how they speak of their friends’ troubles, but the tru-er truth is that often, in order to say what you need to say to a friend about a difficult issue, you have to take the top layer off it by talking to someone else first. And it helps if the person you’re talking to also knows and cares about the person who has inspired the confusion/frustration.
I turn 50 this week. I have lived long enough to know that what I will call historical friendships are irreplaceable. A person can make new friends, but can’t make old friends – friends that have lived and loved him or her through all the phases of life. This incident is just a bump in the road. There is something to be learned, something that could deepen and enrich their relationships if handled sensitively. It would be foolish to toss these relationships aside, presuming that new friendships could be made that would offer the same level of love and commitment.
I promise you, OMO, you will not easily replace these guys. The older you get, the more complicated life becomes, and “friends” become that much more elusive. With everything you’ve all been through, these guys – for better or worse – are your brothers.
It’s none of their business who I choose to date for one thing
Letter writer, I would dispute this assertion. It is true that they have no control over whom you choose to date. But has been their business, when you spent time telling them about the previous break-up. It was also their business when they witnessed you hurt by her (or buoyed by her). They are in your life and things that materially change your life affect theirs. It will be their business again when it comes time for them to support you at your wedding to her, or to support you during a break-up. They might have been one-sided or overly casual when they talked about you and her, but they were discussing the shared business of your joint friendships.
The letter writer says they didn’t say much when he told them he got back together with his ex. Is it because it’s none of their damn business? Does he rely on them when he needs them but otherwise he shuns them?
Word up, Megan! Who you’re with and whether she (in this case) is good for you is most certainly your friends’ business. That doesn’t mean they get a say in it, of course, but you don’t get to rely on your friends for counsel and comfort during a breakup and then insist that they have no opinion about your private life unless you ask them for one. If they’re not trying to make sense of what’s going on with you when you’re not asking, how could they possibly have anything insightful to contribute when you do?
I say this not in order to chide OMO but because I think it’s another reason that things like the overheard conversation happen in the first place. We’re constantly watching our friends make decisions, good and bad, and most of us are pretty good at remembering that unless those decisions are REALLY bad we should probably keep our opinions to ourselves and let our friends be the crazy kids that we love them for being. But that doesn’t make it easy to watch someone you love do something you think might end up hurting them. Sometimes it’s even hard enough that we skeptics have to blab out all our misgivings amongst ourselves when we think our friend has gone out for a woodland stroll. It’s not just a sign of love because it reveals our mutual concern for our friend like Sugar says, but also because it reveals that we’ve been making our best effort to shut up and accept his choices like good friends should, even though we could’ve given him a mouthful and probably kind of wanted to.
Of course it’s hurtful to stumble into such a conversation and I’m not saying OMO doesn’t have a right to his hurt, just that he might think a little more about when and why he’s had conversations about each of these guys with the others in the past. If he recalls the concern for their friend that probably drove those conversations, he might have an easier time believing in the concern for him that was behind this one.
I just want to say that this guy is dead wrong when he says that what he does with an ex who crushed him and left him a twisted pile is none of his friends’ business. These guys were there whe he was bleeding on the street but now they have no rights to an opinion? If this is so he has no right to hang with these guys. These guys had his back otherwise they would not have doubts with his decision to go back to his ex. He opens with how much life they have experienced together and then he goes on to say he is offended by their take on his relationship. I am taken aback at how nobody balled up and went head-on when he told them he had heard what they were saying. I get the impression that this is not a group of true buds who are partners who actually have adventures together but a bunch of jerks who spend a lot of time together in college and can’t break the ties. If he actually cared about these guys he would have insisted on an open forum and listened with an open mind and if these guys had half a nut and cared about him they would have shredded him for going back with a girl who could well be his hemlock. KC
“It’s none of their business who I choose to date for one thing”
I’m with Beth and the others that thinks this is bogus.
As always, beautiful, Sugar.
Cathartic. I thought I was the only one. I’ve always felt I must be an untrue friend because, on occasion, I have talked about one friend to another. And, it wasn’t pretty. I would be embarrassed if caught and, like sandpaper on a sunburn, if I overheard an unflattering critique of MY life choices. No winners. There are times to hear yourself vent and be heard. Validated. And then you let it go. If I could tell that lucky man, who is so loved, to state that it hurt like hell and then tell his buds to not do it again!! (and they will) Here is the opportunity: we can all forgive ourselves. Until the next time. Hopefully with more awareness.
Love you, Sugar.
I’d like to add that very often, when you’re as hurt as this guy says he is, it’s because part of you knows there’s some truth to the chatter. It’s usually very difficult to hurt someone’s feelings to this extent if they aren’t already insecure about the subject, unless they’re abnormally sensitive. Like, when I put on some weight due to medication and it was commented on really negativity by certain family members, I was devastated (and I wasn’t huge or anything, just bigger than my norm) because I KNEW I looked terrible (for me). Now that I’m back to a slender-but-will-never-be-mistaken-for-a-supermodel size (which makes me more comfy in my skin), if someone called me ‘chubby’, I’d laugh it off or tell ’em to go F themselves. If you truly believe that the opinions expressed about you are false, the most common reactions are dismissal or anger. Not hurt. I love the advice given and, as well as taking it, he should have a good long think about why the talking bothered him so much.
And we all need to vent – about work, friends,family, partners, kids, rude people, dogs wearing clothing – whatever. But there’s a BIG difference between venting and bitching. If I’m concerned/pissed with/need to figure out how to approach/am simply making good natured fun of a friend, it’ll be with a mutual friend who loves them too. Your friends are people who know exactly what they hate about you but love ya anyway for all your good parts. Having blindly loyal friends who defend your every move is just as bad, if not worse, tbh. Who needs ‘Yes-Men Mates’?
I’m so pleased to see some comments backing your friends OMO, because I agree – they can’t just be the people you go to because they say what you want to hear. They know you, they’ve heard the highs and lows, maybe, just maybe, you could consider why they are concerned about your relationship. Of COURSE it hurts when we overhear things others wouldn’t say to our face, but it doesn’t mean they’re wrong. It just means they knew you wouldn’t want to hear their opinion of this girl because it conflicts with yours. Well – you have heard them, so accept your friend’s apologies for talking behind your back, forgive the clumsy way you heard their message and consider the message itself – are you and this girl good for each other?
I was part of a dysfunctional triangle where, as one point urinated in a lavatory on a Greek boat in the Aegean, two others entered the bathroom and proceeded to bitch about her. I was one of the nasties and to this day I feel bad about it. Won’t say some of what what said regarding her behaviour and attitude wasn’t correct, but that’s beyond the point. We should have handled the matter differently: up front and honestly.
This request for advice seems completely made up. I don’t know, I am picturing a room full of (female) pranksters composing it and sending it off. Who talks like this guy??
There is nothing like an old friend who knows where all your warts are and still loves you. Every friendship has its ugly moments, and when you can share your feelings about them, your friendship will only get stronger.
I’m so happy I found this column. Just days ago a friend blasted me and broke off our decade long friendship because they felt betrayed that I “gossiped.” I didn’t think I was telling any secrets and was deeply concerned for her, so I spoke of my concerns to others. This column clears up so much of what happened. I shared it and hope she reads it. It hope it saves our friendship.
Gossip, is a most base human form of communication. Sure we do it and participate in it, but WHOA – when it happens to us, it hurts.
Gossip: I have known it and felt its poisonous spread and because of that experience, when I hear it – I tend to bite my tongue and I refuse to participate in it, or perpetuate it further – in some semblance of repentance or karmic retribution.
If this fellow has confided with his best buddies about this girl and his past failed relationship with her, you bet they are going to have an opinion!
They won’t say it when he’s in the room – unless there is a lot of alcohol fueling the conversation. So, of course when he steps out, they will chirp up like birds.
He should be thankful that they care enough about him to discuss it.
He may want to drop the hurt feelings and realize that maybe there is some wisdom in their summations of his attitude and/or vulnerability in this re-tread relationship. Is he walking back into a burning building? Is he being stupid for hoping that things will change? Only he will know. But his friends have that 3rd party power of observation that he doesn’t. Blinded by his heart or is testicles – he’s going back to her.
Good or bad is the only outcome, but his friends will still be there.
Luv ya Sugar!
It’s sad, and perhaps would’ve been a whole lot more painful had they talked about your girl in the manner yhat they did with you in their midst.. perhaps the lesson here should be that your friends care about you so much they’d rather not present you with opinions of themselves against what might be the source of your current happiness.
Click here to subscribe today and leave your comment.