We had a number of people quit The Rumpus Book Club today because I wrote in a Daily Rumpus email that Israel should stop bombing Gaza. One person wrote that I was “ignorant of the history.” But I’m not, actually. I’m not a professor, but I’m reasonably well read on the subject. I’ve also been in Gaza, and Israel, twice. There are a lot of people that have visited Israel; only a very small number of people have been in Gaza as well.
The argument I was making was an argument against history. People will point to history to support the narrative that feels the best. Every group points to history—the liberals, the conservatives, the Israelis, the Palestinians. I’m not against Israel. I’m not advocating for Israel to be “wiped off the map.” I’m not pro-Hamas, or pro-Arafat, or pro-Netanyahu. History doesn’t justify what Israel is doing in Gaza right now, even the most hawkish reading of history. Even if it was only the history on Benjamin Netanyahu’s own bookshelves.
It is immoral to terrorize tens of thousands of people and kill many hundreds of them. I was in Northern Israel in 2006 when Hezbollah rained rockets from Lebanon. It was terrifying. There were entire towns evacuated. But in Gaza there is nowhere to go. It’s only 30 miles long, surrounded by water and an electric fence, and one of the most densely populated places on earth. What Israel is doing right now is wrong. Gaza is a place populated with human beings. Fifty percent of them are children.
Here is the offending section of The Daily Rumpus email that went out this morning:
And speaking of. I got in a conversation about Israel this weekend with an Iraqi American. I said things like, It’s complicated. Because I used to really know something about Israel and Palestine, not a lot, but something. I mean I paid close attention, and I was there. I visited Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza in 2001 and 2006, and wrote at length. But on further reflection maybe it isn’t. I mean, it is, it always will be. Now Netanyahu is saying Israel will always have a security presence in Palestine. In other words, there will never be a free and independent Palestine. And hundreds of deaths and massive destruction in Gaza and not a single fatality in Israel. And Gaza is already a kind of hell, even before the bombing. A prison colony 30 miles long, one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.
And I did learn something in Israel, which is that it’s nobody’s fault. I mean, if you trace the conflict back in time you’ll consistently find each side saying they’re responding to the other side, you’ll never find anyone who admits to starting anything. Everything is a response. But what is happening right now is inhumane, a tragedy, and immoral. Netanyahu was always a disaster waiting on the Israel right until the political conveyer belt moved him into the center. And Hamas was on the other conveyer belt. And the history is rich with villains.
But this is now. The past justifies something, but not much, and it’s usually misinterpreted and misunderstood anyway. We know that Hamas had nothing to do with the three Israeli teenagers killed in the West Bank. And you can’t draw parallels between what the Palestinians are suffering in Gaza and the Israelis are suffering in Israel. I used to kind of believe you could. Not really. But it seemed the main thing was both sides were forced to live in fear, under attack. That idea no longer holds. And it seems like any chance at anything has been left on the table and the table has been destroyed.
Sorry to get all political. I just wanted to talk about the transcendence of art and how it gives meaning when it seems there isn’t any. But first the bombs have to stop.
Love,
stephen
p.s. I recognize the last line of that note is heavy handed. It’s poor writing. But I can’t really send the rest without it. So shit. Fuck it.
44 responses
Wow…. I’m stunned that people would leave because of that post. Really depressing, that. I’m glad you wrote it. Thank you.
Agree fully with Deda. What is happening is a tragedy that cannot be defended on any grounds by either side.
Makes me want to another subscription to the bookclub. Just, cause.
Oh please edit that bad grammar. got too excited.
Thing is, Hamas is also bombing. The bombs need to stop on both sides. It’s like you’re asking Israel to care more about Gaza citizens than those who are in whatever capacity governing the area.
Leigh,
You say “Hamas is also bombing” do you hear yourself? it’s the “eye for an eye” thinking. Bombs come from fear and lack of empathy…which are some of human’s worst “assets”. It is best to talk from empathy then from the intellect to make peace, don’t you think?
No, you misunderstand me, perhaps because you focus too much on one sentence. I am not saying an eye for an eye. Quite the opposite. I am instead saying, you cannot say bombing is wrong for Israel but alright for Hamas, not if you want peace.
Thank you so much for writing this, Stephen. I’m a fan of the Rumpus and of your work. I’m Palestinian living in the West Bank, and it breaks my heart that most of the world doesn’t think of us as human beings. I live in Ramallah and in 2002, when I was in high school, the Israeli army imposed a 28 day curfew upon my city, and constantly bombed (the crap) out of the city. I have severe PTSD and health problems related to trauma. All I ever hear is how Palestinians don’t want peace, and how Palestinians support Hamas, as if we are one indistinguishable entity that doesn’t feel pain and grief. I’m spending the rest of my life terrified of fireworks and loud thuds (including thunder), and barely able to move through the country because of checkpoints, in addition to countless problems that do not fit in a comment section. When Israelis start thinking of us as humans just like them, peace can actually manifest itself, otherwise, entire families in Gaza will continue to be wiped out with short breaks in between.
obviously both sides need to stop bombing….I get that. My comment is to you is more the “Hamas is also bombing”…it comes from wrong thinking in my book. Maybe Stephen is trying to say it’s the strong guy beating up the small guy here (these days), bulling has to stop from strong guy for the playground to become peaceful again. Pointing out that the small guy should stop fighting back, is the wrong thinking, I think. Someone has to have big/huge heart/thinking/doings for peace to grow. Not, they are bombing too thinking. Am I making myself more clear?
Leigh, the big difference is that the rockets from Gaza have yet to kill anyone while over a hundred have been killed in Gaza and over a thousand injured. It’s not the same at all. Not even close. Especially when Israeli’s are sitting on hilltops watching the bombing of Gaza as though it’s entertainment.
It sounds to me like you’re saying Israel should just stop bombing and then peace will happen. Or that Israel, because it is a larger, more powerful entity has no right to protect itself.
From what I read in the news today, Hamas broke a cease fire just this morning. You really think it’s realistic for Israel to just stop while Hamas continues bombing?
Or is it alright when Israelis die, because Israel is bigger?
Thank you for speaking up. Bullying is never a good thing. And if you have to lose some support for speaking the truth I’m sure you will gain much more. Thanks!
The words of Theodor Herzl (the founder of Zionism) from his novel Altneuland…”Our national desire to renew the life of the people of Israel in their ancient homeland however is not aimed against any other people. As we enter the sphere of world history once more, and become once more the standard bearers of our own fate, the Jewish people who have constituted a persecuted minority in all countries of the world for two thousand years, reject with abhorrence the methods of nationalistic domination, under which they themselves have so long suffered. We do not aspire to return to the land of Israel with which we have inseperable historical and spiritual ties in order to suppress another people or to dominate them”. Things have changed, yes? It is not anti-Semitisim that determines the relationship between Palestinians and Israel, but rather the resistance to the division of Palestine when Israel was founded, as well as the withholding of equal rights today. This winter I saw a film, “The Other Son” (I believe that’s the right title), about an Israeli boy and Palestinian boy who were switched at birth by mistake in the hospital where they were born, and the families found this out as they both turned 18, through D.N.A. testing ( due to when one of them is to enter the military and his blood type doesn’t match his parents)…a great great great big hearted, gut wrenching film. See it.
I also wanted to add that I think it’s easy to lump people onto one of two sides in this. I tend to be very much in the middle of the argument. I can entirely see and understand what Stephen says in this post, which I think is very even handed.
The idea that both sides say the other started it is very true. As it is true that it no longer matters where this began. It only matters where it ends.
I would love to see the hostility come to an end and feel completely helpless in knowing how to make that come about.
That is what I am talking about…talking/thinking/writing/acting with empathy for both sides…..not who is bombing who. It takes enormous amount of listening and looking at people differently, with empathy…understanding their fears and helping them feel safe….understanding that both sides really only want understanding and not to live in fear.
Which is why I said in the beginning that I thought you misunderstood me. That is also why I can’t be ok with one side cease firing, whichever side it is, while the other continues.
So if I follow your logic, it’s ok for Hamas to bomb Israel because not as many people die.
Also, it’s important to know your sources when believing the stories you read about this conflict. I’ve read endless stories about people in Gaza and the West Bank handing out candy and celebrating when people die in Israel.
The only new story I read about people watching Gaza bombings as entertainment was in a Danish online source and quoted a couple American 20 year olds. I’m not sure I’d say they represent Israel, and I’m as wary of that source as I am of the ones that portray Palestinians celebrating the deaths of Israelis.
There you go again talking like a warrior, defensively/pointing fingers/playing the “fair” game….how can I get you to see that, that kind of thinking creates wars. Learn some compassion/empathy for the side you are not defending in your heart. Thinking has to change…not the same old stuff we keep hearing. Are you not tired of the same ways of defending/debating? Be the bigger person in your thinking.
And there you go again, Mino, reading what you want into what I wrote. I do not see how it is defending any one side more than another to say don’t just believe what you read. Think for yourself.
You seem to be more concerned with policing my language and telling me I need to be a bigger person which is an ad hominem attack and has nothing to do with the conflict itself. If the people simply discussing this can’t keep from personalizing, how do you expect those directly involved to be different.
You say I take a side in my heart. Not true. I do not believe Palestinian children dying is any more ok than Israeli children dying.
Let me as you, what would you like Israel to do in this situation?
Thanks Stephen.
Do what my parents did when we lived on the West Side of Chicago. Take your kids and move somewhere safe. And in our case, the Irish families really were there first.
I personally prefer my book clubs to be of the usual variety – filled with failed novelists and gentle lesbians and earnest urban lumberjacks, not people pontificating on geo-political powderkegs. But in the end, if the books are good you could pen an essay on the glory of national socialism and I would still subscribe.
The boys on the beach who died. They died playing on a fucking beach. You are a beautiful writer. It does need to stop. I don’t understand it.
What do you need to understand? That Palestinians encourage “collateral damage” to enhance their image at the cost of their children’s lives? That Israel has agreed to settle for a simple cease fire agreement, but the Palestinians keep lobbing missiles And digging tunnels? Read the news. Look at the film of the Palestinians emerging from the tunnels. Israel fucking GAVE them Gaza. Put your kids in a safe place and shut up.
Sharing this.
If I lived in an extremely densely populated urban coastal area that was walled in and patroled on it’s three other borders, whose airspace and waters were controled by others as well, and had been called or leafleted by airdrop to leave A.S.A.P. by an overwhelming powerful military force whose government had made a point of keeping me powerless and useless, and that force were about to start bombing suspected smuggling tunnels near border crossings as well as suspected arms caches in mosques, medical clinics, etc…, well Virginia, I Would Head For The Beach…you know, that would be my desperate last minute guess, but hey, that’s just me, a resident of the world’s Imperial Power. P.S.-you need to do some reading of just what has happened since 1900 to Palestinians.
I guess it depends on which side you are on. I really don’t need you to tell me what to read. I respect your right to choose your beliefs.
Stop bombing EVERYWHERE – war is destroying force. If one can’t find peaceful solution one fails at life. No matter who you are if you are violent aggressor, you are bad! All this “self defense” things are just excuses to be evil!
Stephen, you lost some but you will gain more!
According to Virginia “Israel fucking GAVE them (Palestinians) Gaza”.
Wrong (on both Gaza the city or The Gaza Strip). It was given to the Arabs (Palestinian) by the British Mandate government / U.N. during the negotiated Division of Palestine in 1948. Let us stick to the Facts.
Harry… If we’re talking facts, let’s be specific.
In 1948, the Arabs rejected the UN partition and went on to war with what became Israel thus a Palestinian state was never formed. Egypt had sovereignty over Gaza after 1948. Jordan had the West Bank. After 1967, Israel defeated the the armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria and took back Jerusalem and the lands that had been controlled by these various Arab countries including Gaza and the West bank.
In 2005, Israel did withdraw from Gaza, leaving Fatah officially in control. In 2007, there was a civil war between Hamas and Fatah that left Hamas in control.
As far as Hamas goes, this is what Hilary Clinton has to say about their commitment to peace.
http://on.cc.com/1wtvegd
Even if you don’t agree with her politics, it’s fair to say that she has a better idea of the parties involved and the problems therein than anyone involved in the comments here considering she negotiated the cease fire between the parties in 2012.
The part that is most applicable to how I feel about the situation is the leadership of both sides need to come to the table in good faith.
And one last thing, Stephen, before I bow out of this conversation. I found your post on the situation to be very even handed. You didn’t name call and even the debate in comments here has been civil, although I admit, at a certain point, I did stop reading. I find it painful to continue to discuss a situation in which I feel helpless to do anything of value.
Either way, I’ll continue receiving your newsletter and reading The Rumpus.
How could Israel “take back” the various places you mentioned after the 1967 war with surrounding states? It wasn’t theirs to take back…..they just Took (spoils of war?). The kind of statement of that nature when made is very misleading and dangerous. I don’t have any problem with the rest of your statement or facts. I also hope for peace and equal rights for Israel and Palestinians (as well as statehood).
They took it back in another war waged against Israel by those states after a clear Israeli state was created and accepted in the same 1948 UN partition. All well documented. Not at all misleading or dangerous.
I keep telling you, this kind of talking is what keeps the taking sides/wars going (don’t you see it even here on the web?). It starts with a verbal war then hatred builds. Please, talking the past/putting blame is detrimental to peace….is detrimental to peace…is detrimental to peace…can you not see that?
Both sides are humans/children getting hurt by stupid politics/hatred talking/taking sides.
Leigh, after writing that you wanted to be specific in a previous statement, your latest statement has suddenly become very unspecific. You wrote that after the division of the area in question in 1948 and resulting conflict, a resolution was for Egypt to have sovereignty over Gaza and TransJordan over the West Bank. These were not part of Israel. So after the war of 1967 with it’s neighbors, Israel could not “take back” those areas, they just Took them. Please explain what other war you are now writing about. I would just like to clarify as misinformation is not good.
Harry, your history is selective. When Israel was given back to its people (Arabs, Christians, and Jews who lived there), a new land mass was dubbed Palestine — one much larger and fertile than Israel. It was thought this would be for any who did not wish to stay. In 1948, there were Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs (Armenians), Christians, and Jews who elected to become Israeli citizens; the numbers of each have increased to this day. The day the UN recognized Israel, the 2nd body of land changed its name to Palestinia-TransJordan (later, Jordan), and five Arab lands declared war on Israel.
If the Arab nations stop bombing Israel, there would be no war. If Israel stops defending itself, there will be no Israel.
Read Konrad Lorenz “on Aggression”. Peace is a idealized concept. There is probably at least one neighbor on your block you cannot stand. Some people even move to different neighborhoods over that.
really?!!! real reason to kill, right? So I’m going to start with getting rid of all the redheads…..OK? are you in? will you help?
I don’t recall or see that I said anything about killing. You do see exactly what I mean, though. Except you used the wrong minority in your example. Generally, adulated minorities don’t feel oppression.
Do you have children, Virginia? Rehumanize yourself, why don’t you?
Ahh, dear Genevieve, if only you knew of what you speak. Your judgmental heart would break into a million pieces. But how could you know? Well, that’s an easy one. Everybody knows.
“Eliot”, you wrote “When Israel was given back to its people…a new land mass was dubbed Palestine-one much larger and fertile than Israel.”, are you explaining why Israel put settlements in the (1967-2005) occupied territory (which since then has been under long term seige)? Another question arises from just the part “When Israel was Given Back to its people”…are you addressing the British Mandate/U.N recognizing Israel as soverniegn state in 1948 with an impilcation of entitlement based on the 6th century BC when The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah existed? If so, that sort of thinking makes for conflict. I believe that in order to resolve a here and now problem it would be wise to start in the 20th century at least, as the area west of the Jordan River, south of Lebanon, and north of Egypt has been since recorded time owned,ruled,etc… by many many empires,kingdoms,countries. So, yes, I am being selective timewise in mentioning (in a previous post) the year 1900 as a starting point (it also corresponds to Theodor Herzl’s book from 1902, Altneuland, in which he describes an independant state for European Jews-he is after all the founder of the Zionist movement). In another of my previous posts was a statement by Martin Buber (I misattributed it to Herzl) from 1921 at the 12th Zionist conference. Read that one too. You wrote that Armenians are Christian Arabs. Armenians are Caucasian, and they speak an Indo-European language. They may be Christians or Muslim, or Jewish. Lastly, you wrote “If the Arab nations stop bombing Israel there would be no war.” This is misleading, in that Egypt signed a treaty with Israel in 1979 (after which Anwar Sadat was assassinated), and Jordan signed a treaty with Israel as well. Israel did invade Lebanon, it did bomb Iran, but please name an Arab nation that has bombed Israel in the past 30 years. Palestinians cannot be continually marginalized or illegitimized and treated as terrorists forever in an effort to control them, since it has failed and failed again. Rabin had some courage, but alas, like Sadat, he too was killed by one of his own (a rightwinger). So where are the Heros for Peace? Or is it only Cowards for War?
I left a comment but it never showed up.
Thank you Stephen Elliot for speaking up. Reading the comments I cannot but extremely frustrated when reading comments defending Israel based on false narrative popularized by Zionist machinery, especially after when so many Jewish and/or Israeli historians and intellectuals continue to expose the lies that Israel’s supporters innocently keep believing in. This reminded me of an opening paragraph in Norman Finkelstein’s book Know Too much, in chapter A Conspiracy So Immense: “A central premise of this book is that current academic scholarship on the Israel-Palestine conflict has achieved impressive levels of objectivity, that this historical record is better known, and that consequently more and more people are able to see through the propaganda from which Israel has benefited for so long. The battle, however, is far from over. Full-fledged “pro”-Israel frauds masquerading as scholarship still get published by distinguished university presses and still gain praise in the academy. But these hoaxes also provide backhanded validation of the argument in this book: the foundation of the official Zionist narrative have been so completely shattered that attempts to restore Israel’s pristine image must rely on preposterous inferences and speculations.”
People keep buying the narrative that Arab armies invaded Israel in 1967 whereas Israelis themselves call it a preemptive strike. Others call it aggression. Read this for example: Mordecai Bentov told a newspaper, “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.†Also, General Matetiyahu Peled told a political literary club in Tel Aviv, “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.†I can go on. Finally, western powers knew the partition plan would be rejected by the Arab world since the allocation was extremely unfair with 35% population getting 51% of land. In 1948, most Arab countries were colonized. How could they launch an attack? Avi Shlaim has done extensive work in exposing how the King of Jordan colluded with Israel. Very likely, other Arab puppets too were in on the plan. But when Israel began ethnic cleansing, Arab countries had to save face. Colonized Arab countries had no chance to defeating Israel. Those who are honestly interested in learning the history objectively, look up Plan Dalet, a detailed Nazi-like Zionist blue print of systematically killing and uprooting Palestinians from most of the of land.
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